How can we go back? We’re already on the way back. It’s called the Fediverse.
I help pay for my instance to operate, and it’s a cost I’m happy to help shoulder.
Us instance admins appreciate it I promise
Same, its on my best pi. 🥧
How is it running you a month?
Are you asking how much I donate per month?
Yep we have different lemmy/mastodon/etc… instances talking with one another. Anyone can set up something like activityhub. Its a fun place in my opinion!
Btw how do we stand on just blatantly copying and reposting material from reddit? I missed the announcement talking about that.
enjoy the mainstream memes and discussion, but avoid the algorithmic content slop from them. That’s how I see the fediverse. It’s a win in my book.
Ehhhh, the OG internet connected better because all nodes were well connected. The Fediverse is a series of single servers that can’t even sync all data across themselves. It’s cute, but it’s post-it notes on strings atm
No. The fediverse is just more of the same mindless gargling and regurgitation of mainstream media excrement that the internet has become, but federated.
It lacks the creativity, originality, experimentation, wonder, sheer life of the old internet.
It’s just as dead, enshittified, and riddled with misinformation bots as everything else.
Step up!
Create!
It’s not unless you are operating your own instance.
Or at the least, avoid the major instances and use smaller instances from individuals.
The Fediverse is a bit more like the old USENET days in some regards, but ultimately if it ever becomes more popular the same assholes that ruin other online experiences will also wind up here.
What made the Internet more exciting 30 years ago was that it was mostly comprised of the well educated and dedicated hobbyists, who had it in their best interest to generally keep things decent. We didn’t have the uber-lock-in of a handful of massive companies running everything.
It’s all Eternal September. There’s no going back at this point — any new medium that becomes popular will attract the same forces making the current Internet worse.
if it ever becomes more popular the same assholes that ruin other online experiences will also wind up here.
That’s kind of the glory of the fediverse, though. We can have communities using the same protocol that never interact with each other.
There can be completely separate fediverses that cater to different people.
The Fediverse by design prevents this, while the internet of the old age had little if any guardrails against this specially since the platforms never really federated with another.
Did forum sites even federate? One forum sites would be dead and the next would have more activity. But what if the other forum with less activity was the one you wanted to use? The old internet was a good start but there’s a reason why it’s dominated by Instagram and Facebook, while email, you can use mostly any provider and not feel like you’re left out.
The Fediverse by design prevents this, while the internet of the old age had little if any guardrails against this specially since the platforms never really federated with another.
I see someone is too young to remember USENET.
We would be better than ever, if not for the normification.
what exactly does that mean?
It’s what happened to the internet. Devices were dumbed down to make the internet accessible for everyone. Now the “normies” are also on the internet, whereas in the past they’d belittle you for spending time on the computer.
In time, the Fediverse will also be easily accessible. And where there are normies, you’ll find corporate enshittification.
Edit: thanks for the downvotes because I explained the word “normification”. You’re overthinking this. It’s a term that has been around since before Reddit became popular. It’s a term that stems from 4chan. I don’t like the term, I just explained it. And yes, the corpos are to blame but they couldn’t do the things they do without a certain user base. And that’s not your typical tech savvy user base. How is that so difficult to understand?
I’m not sure that categorizing people as “normies” is a great idea. nor is it a way to entice new people and voices to join and learn how to use the fediverse so that it can become a more reliable place.
i think blaming enshittification on “normies” is a lot easier than holding greedy corporations accountable for directly making everything worse. it’s surely easier, but the real issue remains unchecked.
if anything, it’s a good thing that more people are learning how much better the fediverse is. it helps the fediverse get stronger, not weaker.
“us” vs “them” is not a mindset that will produce anything except cesspools of toxicity. at least imho.
blaming enshittification on “normies”
What’s really annoying is it’s straight out of the corpo playbook.
“We’re not responsible for ______, you are because you didn’t do enough ________”.
The most blatant is “global warming” and “ate too much meat/didn’t recycle enough/made poor choices with your car” and so on.
It’d be nice if people would stop trying to blame the worst offenses being perpetuated on people by billionaires and their pet corporations on personal choices, because it’s hot liquid bullshit.
I didn’t coin the term and I too believe it’s a huge generalization. However, “simpler” people are more susceptible to ads. The “normies” in question are the ones that don’t use adblockers, they believe ads are normal and they believe ads don’t affect them. Corporations capitalize on that. Better tech education would definitely help take some power away from corporations.
Edit: even now you’ll find people that use Lemmy apps that have ads. The bigger the user base, the more greedy companies will find ways of exploiting the Fediverse.
Better tech education would definitely help take some power away from corporations
If you truly believe that, then vilifying more “simple” and less tech-savvy individuals is not the way to do it. Don’t be angry that they click on ads. Be angry that they’ve been poisoned to think that behavior is normal on the internet.
Education is absolutely possible for those new to things like the fediverse. But education doesn’t work when you use those labels for people. It widens the gap, it doesn’t close it.
I was a normie once. I too fell for misinformation in the past. If it wasn’t for the freely available information on the internet, I wouldn’t be here today.
You went ahead and actually gathered the correct information. This is not what the “normies” in question do. Look, I didn’t coin the term nor do I approve of the use of this term. I just wanted to explain what the other person meant with “normification”.
Internet? You mean the WiFi /s
No I mean the modem on my hard drive not the wifi.
normies
Honestly some normies would help us talk about something different than US politics, linux and being trans femboys. Honestly, we’d have some diversity in content. I’d like that.
I think it would make discussions about US politics even worse. But I agree with the rest. I personally would also like to have a more broad user base. That’d definitely spark more interesting discussions. Lemmy is a very weird echo chamber right now. It’s just very important that no one in the Fediverse starts to capitalize on them. That’d be the moment enshittification starts. And that will happen once the mainstream people come pouring in because greed will always corrupt the ones who have some form of power. Someone will take advantage of this.
With community visibility, there is plenty of room to form these communities that regular people can’t access for those who want that.
I can imagine an instance with a whole collection of insider communities. In fact, it’s already happened.
Is this some kind of attack on certain minority groups or am I over thinking this comment? I googled what normification meant and the results gave me some bad vibes regarding this comments direction.
It’s not an attack on certain minority groups unless you consider “normal average person” a minority group.
It’s just a little bit of the old nerd superiority complex leaking out with a new word attached to it.
2 ways to go back:
-
Corporations become less greedy.
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Consumers and businesses stop tolerating abuse and consider other options that will temporarily inconvenience them.
Neither one seems likely. If it were we simply wouldn’t be here in the first place.
A few of us still remembers option 3) Regulation And also 4) Properly working anti-trust laws.
Those are both the same, and would fall under #2.
I’ve said before and I’ll say again. I would use the option on amazon for shipping that says “let your employees pee”. I get my package 2-3 days later. Oh well. I don’t give a shit. I’d rather normalize companies treating people like people. And if I get my limited edition pez dispenser 3 days later, so be it.
Not like it’s an oxygen tank.
1 can be solved with regulation or nationalization. Services online should be public services. Like school, police, roads. You can still have private alternatives too.
History tells us there’s also a release valve of a swift brick to the side of the head, one brick per billionaire.
It sounds messier than paying taxes, to me. But I’m not a billionaire, so I can’t say I understand their motives.
It isn’t just corporations that have ruined everything, it’s spammers and scammers and cybercriminals too. Searching any topic these days is a crapshoot, with a high likelihood of falling into a spammer’s tarpit.
To me it feels like the internet is evolving into a virtual Dark Forest. We float around in these little bubbles of sanity, hiding amid a yawning expanse of seething chaos.
im doing 2 actually.
That’s great but it takes more than 1, or even 1M people. It has to be enough people that anti-consumer shitfuckery is no longer profitable.
-
Libraries should evolve to play a larger role in the internet, theyve been trying to reinvent themselves and i think this best aligns with their spiritual purpose. Some ideas:
Caretakers of digital archives.
Caretakers of relevant open source projects.
Could I get a free domain with my library card?
Could I get free api access to mapping or other localized data?
Should libraries host local fediverse instances for civic users? (think police, firefighter alert, other community related feeds)
It’s fascinating how the absolute majority of people is trying to solve both social and technical problems at the same time via only social or only technical means. Again and again.
You need both.
Fediverse works right for moderation, but technically communities and users are part of an instance, and an instance is a physical thing that may go down. Just like most of our Web has vanished. And also, of course, it uses Web technologies.
Further my idea as to what should be done about this (one approach is Nostr, unloved here because of people who use it ; I also think it’s too primitive):
The storage must be full p2p. Like Freenet, but probably optimized so that people would only store what they themselves need, and give some space to others in the communities they participate in. Not to all the network, like Freenet, but only to whom they want.
The identities should be “federated”, as in communities allowing moderation. Moderation should be done via signed “delete” records, and users would then not replicate “deleted” information.
This way even when “an instance goes down” (say, instance admin has lost their private key or something like that), its stuff will still be replicated.
One can even make “an instance” inherit another instance (again, instance admin has lost their private key or, say, someone has stolen it), so that its users would replicate that.
One can imagine many mechanisms on top of that. But what’s described would allow libraries and allows a thing similar to DNS (again, like a community, to which you subscribe for naming service that associates names with entities) and a thing similar to a static website, and something like Usenet with user identities, moderation and communities.
Dynamic websites are possible too - but I’m not really knowledgeable about smart contracts and such required for it.
I’m actually describing something in the middle of a few things far smarter people are already doing.
This would allow agility between social and technical solutions.
Creating a closed network on the Internet where any commercialization and domination are prohibited might help?
Something like Tor/freenet/I2P, but less shady (I know it’s not meant to be like this), open and accessible to anyone.
Edit: I remembered about gemini protocol, where you get
lightweight online space where documents are just documents, in the interests of every reader’s privacy, attention and bandwidth
Perfect for the new better internet, huh?
For Android/iOS users, there’s a client called Lagrange on F-droid and Testflight
I totally agree. Corporate interests and rampant consumerism have ruined the majority of the internet.
Glad we still have refuges like lemmy though to take solace in. Proportionally we’re a smaller part, but absolutely I’d say we’re about the same or larger than in the 2000s.
we’re a smaller part
Quality trumps quantity anytime.
Oh absolutely. I exclusively use Lemmy now for social media, my online experience is absolutely amazing as a result. My love for the internet has returned
The genie is already out of the bottle BUT, one solution would be to raise the barrier to entry again.
Return the internet to the pre-“smart” phone era, in which a minimum bar of effort and knowledge needed to be present in order to connect and participate on the web.
In 2008~2010, the flood gates opened for all the normies to stampede in and everything has been downhill since then.
I agree to an extent, but the problem is not so much the normies themselves as it is the massive commercial market they represent. You might point to mainstream social media as evidence of a problem with the people themselves, but you would be overlooking the fact that the surveillance and attention economies have meant these social media platforms are deliberately designed to position people against one another to drive engagement so these companies can charge more to advertisers. Discourse on the internet isn’t getting worse because there are more bad people online, it’s getting worse because companies have a financial incentive to turn us into bad people when we are online.
We’re in Eternal September now. Have been for a few decades.
The normies are not the problem, they are the victims. The abusers are the giant corporation manipulating the masses and monetizing a publicly funded infrastructure for their own gains.
The point isn’t “it’s their fault”. But it changes the dynamic.
An enthusiast community can, for good and bad, largely self regulate. It’s easier to keep corporate interests either out, or engaging on your terms.
Once the community grows to include a high enough proportion of casual participants, that ability goes away, because manipulations that don’t work on inquisitive expert audiences do work on less informed ones, and less willing to question. It’s harder to establish who actually knows what they’re talking about by reputation, it’s harder to weed out the trolls from the naive, and it’s just generally harder to keep the focus of the community where you want it to be.
Corporations are one of the groups of bad actors manipulating that difference in dynamics, but the dynamics are different because of the large influx of people who don’t understand as much and aren’t trying to.
Return the internet to the pre-“smart” phone era, in which a minimum bar of effort and knowledge needed to be present in order to connect and participate on the web.
Yeah. I think that’s happening now. The public will discover the Fediverse, but I’m not sure if they’ll be welcomed into every community here.
How about BBSs? If you want to spam at 1200 baud, you had better be dedicated.
To a large degree, the same internet that used to be, still is.
Keep in mind that in the era they are nostalgic for, the internet involved roughly 4% of the world’s population. As big in the public conciousness was, it was a relatively small thing.
For example, most people see Lemmy as pretty small and much slower content coming at you than reddit. However Lemmy is still way bigger than what a mid 90s experience with the internet would be. I can still connect to play BBS Door games and there’s barely anyone there, but there were barely any people there back then either. The “old” internet is still there, it’s just small compared to the vast majority of the internet that came about later.
Some things are gone, but replaced. For example Geocities now has neocities, which is niche by today’s standards, but wouldn’t be shocked if neocities technically is bigger than geocities ever was in absolute terms.
Some things are gone and won’t come back. The late 2000s saw a really nice and stable all-you-can-watch streaming experience from Netflix, and their success brought about maddening licensing deals where material randomly appears, moves, and disappears and where a lot of material demands more to “rent” than buying an actual Blu Ray disc of it would cost (have gone back to buying discs as of late because it’s cheaper than streaming).
How did we get here
Money!
can we go back?
No!
Free hosting, for everyone, without ads.
Ut-oh.
(But seriously, while it wasn’t free, having an account with an ISP used to come with 10 MB of personal webspace without ads or anything. That’s something you never really see these days.)
Woof. I forgot that used to be a thing. I’m pretty sure I had a phonebook those days.
Yeah you can host your own blog on the fediverse. I’ve started similar attempts, in fact, such as !aniki_blog@feddit.org . I intend to expand it, but it takes time getting used to this type of personal web space.
Alternately, what’d be really neat would be an easy way to mostly completely do a webpage setup for someone using the free hosting options that do exist.
Like, a tool that makes handling deploying something to Github Pages or Cloudflare Pages or whomever else offers basically free web hosting that isn’t nerdy to the point that you need a 6,000 word document to explain the steps you’d have to take to get a webpage from a HTML editor to being actually hosted.
Or, IDK, maybe going back for ye old domain.com/~username/ web hosting could be an interesting project to take on, since I’m sure handling file uploads like that should be trivial (lots and loooots of ways to do that.). Just have to not end up going Straight To Jail offering hosting for people, I suppose.
Not really needed with dynamic DNS able to point back to a web server on your own network.
There’s a lot to be said for “http://yourISP.com/~username” being available 24/7 at no particular effort to you.
There’s a little to be said for it, sure.
I use nearlyfreespeech.net for personal hosting. They charge me about 10 cents a day.
Many ISPs still give an email address.
These days with how tied to your identity email is, using an ISP provided email is like self-imposed vendor lock-in though. A friend who uses an ISP provided email just switched ISPs and it caused havoc - bank logins, power company logins, etc
Quality through obfuscation… make it harder to use. If the dimwits can’t figure out how to use it…
I think monetization ruined it. There’s a lot more trash to sift through.
Globalization ruined it.
Not like in politics (though similar), but in the sense that instead of a space of generally sane people where you don’t have to follow any conventions of fashion or social expectations of idiots, like a park where people sit in grass and eat sandwiches, it has turned into something like a mall built in place of that park, with guards, ads, bullshit and shopping apes.
There definitely was trash. You just didn’t have to see it. You’d not go to a central recommendations system, like in social nets or search engines. You’d go to web directories and your friends. Like for many things you still do.
Now there’s the fake social pressure of being on corporate platforms. Why fake? Because you still really need and talk to the same amount people you would back then, even fewer.
That fake social pressure was their killer invention. Human psychology is unprepared for critically evaluating the emotions from being able to scroll through half the world of other people right now. They don’t generally use that seemingly easy ability to reach anyone anywhere, while when it was a bit harder, they would, but the fake feeling of having it is very strong.
It’s a mouse trap.
Archive the entire thing and start over.
needs enshitfication vaccination, if we can make it
So far we’re doing a great job at keeping profits out of the equation. Let’s see if it lasts.
Not sure this has been said yet, but Neocities is a pretty great throwback to GeoCities and the early 2000’s web.
All a bunch of small, handcrafted websites and personal blogs by individuals and small groups.
Exploring feels like I remember back in the early 2000’s as a teen. Crazy and weird sites, hidden links and easter eggs, ARGs, random annon comments you can post to a wall, .gifs all over, pixel art, hacker manifestos, links to other similar sites, etc.
The Fediverse is pretty great too.
I wish there were more site directories curated by communities, that would reduce my reliance on search engines for sure. RSS is great, I’ve been using that to help build my personal content feed.
Betteridge’s law of headlines. Any headline that ends with a question the answer is always no.
